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Public Discord for Gregoria
talk channels / debate
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Rebels are best
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Reugo Tikova 18-Jun-19 03:24 AM
:0
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I make the best Nuclear Weapons. Case closed.
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Reugo Tikova 18-Jun-19 05:56 PM
Noice
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does that mean vindex has nuclear weaponry?
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Reugo Tikova 18-Jun-19 07:01 PM
Who knows
19:01
It’s happened before @Dorrrraa xd
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Deleted User 26-Jun-19 07:00 PM
B0YZ’s Bombs, we bomb your buildings, if you don’t like it, 50% off
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Reugo Tikova 26-Jun-19 09:17 PM
Oh
21:17
Interesting
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ree
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Reugo Tikova 10-Jul-19 10:54 AM
Double ree
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pigseatjello 10-Jul-19 01:50 PM
Triple ree
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Reugo Tikova 10-Jul-19 06:55 PM
>_>
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It’s not really an opinion
23:57
It’s more facts
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:57 PM
It’s an opinion lol
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Not really.
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:57 PM
Americans typically don’t like Cuba anyways
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I’m not a typical American.
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:57 PM
Mhm
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I’m not even biased to a specific political party.
23:58
I have my own views and I’m biased.
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:58 PM
I have my own political views as well
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I watch all the news to piece together what actually happened
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:58 PM
Lol the media
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Media is horrible.
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:58 PM
Mhm
23:58
But yet you base your opinion on media?
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:58 PM
The news
23:58
Is not media?
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you have to get information somewhere.
23:59
I get it from all of them
23:59
Then decide what happened
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:59 PM
There are academic journal sites
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And then give my opinion
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:59 PM
What news do you watch to base your opinion?
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:59 PM
Like?
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I watch Fox, cnn, abc and others lmao
23:59
a ton
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:59 PM
PFFFFTTTT
23:59
Fox
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Reugo Tikova 04-May-20 11:59 PM
CNN
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I have to watch them all
00:00
It’s just how you get a solid opinion
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:00 AM
Ye don’t base your facts from those news sites
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I’m not a fan of ether
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:00 AM
Especially fox and cnn
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I’m not basing them from those
00:00
It’s not opinions I’m basing from news
00:00
It’s what happened
00:00
And events
00:00
They always will spice it up a bit
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:00 AM
Even though they have their own spin on it
00:00
That’s why I watch several
00:00
Lol
00:00
You can get rid of the spin easily that way
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:00 AM
I don’t really look at the news
00:01
I don’t much
00:01
Only when I need to
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:01 AM
The academic journals are good
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:01 AM
Depends on which one
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But I am independent I am not fond of any political party
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:01 AM
Although media, news, whatever are generally either left leaning or right leaning
00:01
I don’t like the left or right either
00:02
But I like communism because of the idea
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The only thing that you will be fond of me is probably the fact that I know the ussr anthem and it’s my ringtone
00:02
lmao
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:02 AM
Lol
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What idea
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:02 AM
The idea that people are equal
00:02
And no state exists
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:03 AM
Basically a utopia as what people could describe it
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This is the thing
00:03
We aren’t all equal
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:03 AM
I know
00:03
It’s the way the world works
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A lawn mower isn’t equal to a doctor and they don’t deserve the same pay etc
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:03 AM
They have different work
00:04
In socialism workers aren’t controlled by the bourgeoise
00:04
Otherwise known as the 1%
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Middle class?
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:04 AM
There are rich people who worked to get lots of money yet there are also workers who worked hard as well but don’t get anything for it
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:05 AM
Hmm
00:05
You could say middle class
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If there isn’t rich people there isn’t workers
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:05 AM
Not true
00:05
You can have workers without rich
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Very true.
00:05
What do they work for?
00:05
Money.
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:05 AM
Money to live
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Who do they work for usually
00:05
Companies
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:05 AM
Not to buy yachts
00:05
In capitalism
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Companies are usually ran by rich people
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:05 AM
What about outside of capitalism
00:06
There are also small businesses
00:06
Not all companies
00:06
Only in capitalism you work for the rich
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I’m not a big debater
00:06
I’m gonna call in the big guns
00:06
With the facts
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:07 AM
Lol
00:07
From your news
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@Deleted User
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:07 AM
Yes
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Nope. (edited)
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:07 AM
whats this
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Some random old country apparently
00:07
Anyways this guys a communist
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:07 AM
that's a shame
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:07 AM
I can have my own political views
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:08 AM
yeah, in a free country
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:08 AM
You don’t have to like it xd
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:08 AM
not in the USSR
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:08 AM
Ye
00:09
I honestly don’t mind if I’m in a country with a socialist “dictatorship”
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:09 AM
head on over to cuba then
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:09 AM
Sure thing
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:09 AM
everyone over there loves it I hear
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:09 AM
Yup
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when you have to call in backup to support your side, that usually is a signal that your debate is weak, regardless of whatever side you are on
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He says Cuba is good
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:09 AM
the debate is not weak
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:09 AM
Lol povi
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:09 AM
all of america disagrees with you
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so he’d probably like it
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:09 AM
all of cubas citizens disagree with you
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:09 AM
Lol not all of America
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:09 AM
all of north koreas citizens disagree with you
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It’s not really that I can call in backup
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:10 AM
There is the communist party of the US
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Francis is just the one with the smooth talk
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:10 AM
all of russias USSR survivors disagree with you
00:10
yeah and it's a joke
00:10
it's a literal joke
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:10 AM
Lol you say all of them
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:10 AM
So you only rely on generalisation to support your argument?
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No not that side, i'm saying the debate, there's a difference. Debate's how you talk, the side is the idea that you'd be supporting (edited)
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and then there’s the dumb ones
00:10
like that one kid from swn
00:10
Lmao
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:10 AM
Lol
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:10 AM
it isn't generalizing, generalizing implies the opposing point is other significance or fact.
00:10
of*
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:11 AM
Yet you say all of Cuba and American and whatever disagrees
00:11
So that is generalisation
00:11
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:11 AM
all of cubas citizens will agree that cuba is currently a hellhole, anyone who says it's a paradise is a party leader in cuba and lives like a king
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:11 AM
And what proof of that you have?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:11 AM
you have to wait in line for 13 hours to get a roll of toilet paper
00:11
oh and
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:11 AM
You know they can leave?
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Not in North Korea lol
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:12 AM
So do you in America
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How do you feel about North Korea
00:12
It’s communist
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:12 AM
Being in line for toilet paper at a store xd
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:12 AM
every 10 years around 3 million cuban or venezulan refugees come to the west
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and they don’t let anyone out
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:12 AM
@Reugo Tikova yeah in america you get it in 30 minutes
00:12
in cuba it takes 13 hours
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:12 AM
North Korea is not socialist anymore
00:12
Lol yet you have people also being in mobs just to get in a store on a special market day
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:13 AM
for sales, why not
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:13 AM
Like Black Friday
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:13 AM
if it saves you money it's definitely worth it
00:13
the latest iphone for 200$ is a steal
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North Korea ain’t a democracy
00:13
They can say they are
00:13
But we all know they aren’t lmao
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:13 AM
if north korea is a democracy then japan won ww2
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:13 AM
They also aren’t socialist
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LMAO Francis
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:13 AM
juche is communist
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Then Hitler is my grandpa
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:13 AM
NK is juche
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:13 AM
Not anymore
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And he’s a communist
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:13 AM
They believe in it doesn’t mean they are
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:14 AM
yeah you believe in communism
00:14
doesnt mean it works
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:14 AM
They changed a part in their constitution that makes them not socialist anymore
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:14 AM
their constitution
00:14
is a literal joke
00:14
you can get arrested for watching a foreign movie
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North Korea
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:14 AM
it is hell
00:14
Is a literal joke
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:14 AM
you can be shot for calling kim jong un fat
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:14 AM
The only reason why communism doesn’t work is because most countries are capitalist
00:14
Actually yes
00:14
And you wonder why
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:14 AM
When in communism state doesn’t exist
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They are capitalist
00:14
It’s because they don’t work
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:14 AM
you can literally be hanged in north korea for calling kim jong un ugly
00:14
freedom
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Communist states don’t work
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:15 AM
Lol
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That’s why they are all capitalist
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:15 AM
If everyone was a socialist then communism would bring to fruition
00:15
But not everyone is a socialist
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:15 AM
capitalism is not a man made system
00:15
tribes of chimps utilize capitalism,
00:15
it has been around since the dawn of time
00:15
"I sell this for this much"
00:15
"ok I'll do this much"
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:15 AM
Not all of time
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:15 AM
yes
00:16
all the time
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:16 AM
And in communism you trade stuff
00:16
And people have being doing that since beginning
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:16 AM
yeah you trade food so that you dont starve
00:16
look out, if you're caught you get shot
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:16 AM
Exactly
00:16
That’s not how communism works
00:16
Also USSR didn’t follow Marx’s idea of how to be a socialist state
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:16 AM
communism is dictatorship, how dare any man decide how much a man is allowed to earn
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:16 AM
Lenin was alright though
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:17 AM
lenin allowed the massacres of 1922 - 24
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:17 AM
Yet in capitalism you have to wonder why there are unions
00:17
And income inequality
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:17 AM
anyone accused of anti soviet behavior could be shot instantly, by order of lenin
00:17
the guy you claim that was alright
00:17
this lead to the death of around 22,000 people in two weeks.
00:17
you argument is that of every communist
00:18
"last time we tried this everybody died, but I've got a really good feeling this time"
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Reason there is income inequality is because a doctor Shouldn’t make as much is a lawnmower
00:18
Lawnmower may work as hard but They didn’t go to all the school
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:18 AM
Yet the other reason for income inequality is that the rich makes more than the average worker
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:18 AM
yeah because they're ancestors worked as hard as they could
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They didn’t put in as much hours as the doctor did to become the position all they did was dio peoples lawns
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:19 AM
I guess the rich just got their money out of nowhere huh
00:19
it just came into existance
00:19
no one worked for it in their family
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:19 AM
People only think communism is bad because of select socialist governments that are dictatorships
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:19 AM
it just appeared
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:19 AM
Yet workers work hard everyday
00:19
And where is their yacht?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:19 AM
this is incredible
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That’s not how life works
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:19 AM
just because you work
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:19 AM
Yet in socialist governments as well we have free healthcare
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:19 AM
you are not entitled to a yacht
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:19 AM
Free education
00:19
In the Us
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:19 AM
when education is free
00:19
it is worth nothing
00:20
when education is literally free, it is worth nothing.
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:20 AM
You probably have to have a mortgage just to pay for health care
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In North Korea the education is propaganda
00:20
It’s free
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:20 AM
in canada you can see the doctor for free, next year
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:20 AM
Yet if education is free it’s easier to access
00:20
Good
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:20 AM
it's worth nothing if it's free
00:20
it has no value
00:20
no meaning
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:20 AM
Healthcare should be free
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:20 AM
no use
00:20
who pays for the doctors salary?
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:20 AM
So water should have to be bought?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:20 AM
the state?
00:20
where does the state get its money?
00:20
the people
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:20 AM
Tax payers
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:20 AM
exactly
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:20 AM
Who are also workers
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:20 AM
I shouldn't be required to pay for a mans healthcare
00:21
he broke his leg that ain't my fault
00:21
I'm not paying an extra 3 grand on my tax returns
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:21 AM
The state takes care of its people
00:21
Not the 1%
00:21
Who just takes everything
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:21 AM
the state sucks the blood of the 1% to take care of its people
00:21
the state produces no product
00:21
it relies on the success of others
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:21 AM
Yet the state provides for the people
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:21 AM
by sucking the blood and the money of others
00:21
it takes from the successful
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:21 AM
The 1% only give people work to bank off of them
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:21 AM
lmao
00:22
no they give the poor money because if they dont they go to jail
00:22
little thing called taxes
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:22 AM
Lol
00:22
Go to jail? (edited)
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:22 AM
yeah
00:22
you dont pay taxes
00:22
thats how that works
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Tax fraud
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:22 AM
Yet people have also not been successful even working for companies
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:22 AM
Lol and companies do tax fraud too
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:22 AM
that is an extremely vague statement
00:22
you could've said
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:22 AM
Might I remind you of the Panama papers?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:22 AM
"they aren't successful no matter how hard they try"
00:22
but instead you say
00:23
"they work for a company and they arent successful"
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:23 AM
Yes
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:23 AM
they could be unsucessful for millions of reasond
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:23 AM
Even if they work hard
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:23 AM
reasons*
00:23
just because you work for a company doesn't mean you immediately get money
00:23
you have to work
00:23
its part of the job
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:23 AM
And yet we do
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:23 AM
what
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:23 AM
So workers should just slave for a company?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:23 AM
slavery implies they aren't paid
00:23
a very unwise use of words
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:24 AM
Mhm
00:24
You do understand exaggeration right?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:24 AM
can you not make a good point without having to exaggerate the oppositions faults?
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:24 AM
Lol
00:24
A successful socialist state is Bolivia
00:25
Their leader nationalised resources, made education free, and it benefited the people
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:25 AM
they're so successful that in 2012 around a million people fled from their country.
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:25 AM
And yes he was voted in
00:25
Lol
00:25
Based on what fact?
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:25 AM
www.worlddata.info
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:25 AM
Lol
00:25
Yet Bolivia became more successful from it
00:26
By having Evo Morales
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:26 AM
I'd imagine the raw flour is easier to disperse when 1 million people flea your country
00:26
more raw flour for everyone
00:26
now go work or be shot comrade
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:27 AM
Lol k then
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Deleted User 05-May-20 12:28 AM
in-game I am a musician so unless that role has any meaning I'm unaware of hmu
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Reugo Tikova 05-May-20 12:28 AM
#general
00:28
Irl I’m a musician
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:40 AM
Just to put my hat into the ring... People left Bolivia because they were being influenced by overseas companies and the global media who portrayed Evo's government as the next stalin, plus there is also thing called free will in terms of free movement
04:41
Under Morales the country had a great amount of economic increase
04:42
He wasn't socialist per se but he did what many leaders couldn't, institute a non dictatorial pseudo democratic-socialist government
04:42
@Deleted User
04:43
Plus there are tonnes of countries that had socialised systems that work amazingly
04:43
cough cough Australia under the Labor govennrnt
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:44 AM
a socialized programs and a socialist government are two very different things
04:44
the majority of the U.S. is currently capitalist, but it has social programs
04:44
welfare is literally a socialist construct
04:44
before the late 1930s, if you didn't work you starved.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:44 AM
Free healthcare, large union power, huge educational help for most of the country
04:45
Something that the US doesn't have
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:45 AM
large union power is getting out of hand in the US
04:45
teachers do not need a union
04:45
teachers are not a laborious job
04:45
they get penchants
04:45
they live modestly yet luxuriously
04:45
no need for a union
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:45 AM
Unions are there so that they aren't exploited
04:46
Unions don't even impede economy
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:46 AM
how would a corporation exploit teachers, a workforce already under the jurisdiction of the dreaded DoE
04:46
labors are for factory men,
04:46
cab drivers
04:46
and laborious low income jobs
04:47
not jobs that pay you $90,000 a year upon retirement
04:47
keep in mind thats the penchant of the average retired war veteran
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:47 AM
Teacher is an extremely variable job, it takes years to get to a semi-comfortable point
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:47 AM
in fact, I think WW2 Veterans get less of a penchant then retired DoE Superintendents currently do.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:48 AM
Is that in current day money or past tense money not accounted for inflation?
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:48 AM
all judged for inflation
04:48
p sure the last time a WW2 Veterans salary was updated was in the early 2000s
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:49 AM
Anyway
04:50
In Australia, when out leftist government was in oowr, we were 3rd in oecd rankings, dispite having huge amounts of government spendings, massive union power, free healthcare, mass educational support and more
04:51
The argument that government healthcare is simply not viable for large, non homogenous nations is simply untrue as well, considering the mass diversity of Australia even rivals the us (edited)
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:51 AM
degrees of free healthcare depending upon income could be implemented, purely free healthcare to everyone is a recipe for disaster tho
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:52 AM
That's not what has been done in Australia lol
04:53
When at full funding, Medicare worked as one of the best healthcare systems in the world dispite having basically free healthcare for everyone
04:53
Even underfunded it still works miles better than the current disaster that is the US healthcare system
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:55 AM
you see, health care in australia works like this
04:55
you goin in for a dental appointment that would cost you around 200 - 300$ in the US
04:56
you get it done within two weeks, everything goes fine
04:56
then it gets up to more serious stuff, like heart surgeries, leg surgeries, back surgeries, pretty much everything that requires the medical practitioner to have a masters degree
04:56
and you might find yourself waiting 7 months to a year for that back surgery
04:57
it gets worse in the neuro surgeon area
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:57 AM
And yet the average amount of time that normal working class us citizens have to wait to be able to afford such basically the same amount of time
04:58
And it's nowhere near 7 months lol
04:58
My brother had to get his ACL whatever it's called fixed and they did the surgery in less than a month
04:58
Which was even faster than what we would have been able to do with private healthcare
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Deleted User 06-May-20 04:58 AM
what do you mean ACL
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 04:59 AM
ACL surgery
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:01 AM
that makes sense, but another thing, when you get the government involved like this on such a level it's going to create some problems, especially in the U.S. Say those nasty zionist guys in Congress got their way and the U.S. now had state mandated healthcare, stocks would take a bigger dive then they did during the coronavirus, and U.S. Citizens would be looking at a massive increase in taxes, a nasty combination.
05:01
also, yes, you do have to wait a considerably long time for vital surgeries
05:01
a knee surgery isn't exactly something vital that would require lots of attention, while it is a considerable point.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:02 AM
1 month is conserably long?
05:02
Urgent surgery's are category 1 and are treated within a month here lol
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:02 AM
are you trying to tell me that the highest grade of surgery is treated within a month
05:02
because I hate to say it but
05:02
the guys dead by then
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:03 AM
And u do realise that hospitals do it within days when it's that urgent?
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:03 AM
uh no, if your leg is broken and you are bleeding out you go to a hospital immediately
05:04
you get treated instantly, the payment only comes up afterwards
05:04
if you couldn't pay for it they'd set up a legal program to help you overtime
05:04
like a 3 week like mortgage.
05:04
long*
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:05 AM
We aren't forced to use the overall healthcare lol, people still have private healthcare, it's just that those who really need it, can get it
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:05 AM
if you're having a heart failure and you call an ambulance you are treated instantly when you arrive, payment comes up afterwards when the surgery is done.
05:05
and again, if you can't pay for it, which is somewhat unlikely if you're having a heart failure, then you set up something that's basically a 3 week long mortgage towards the hospital. (edited)
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:05 AM
Difference being, that you aren't charged based on which hospital u go to in Australia
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:06 AM
I find that hard to believe,
05:06
how would the salaries work
05:06
you'd have to pay more in taxes to a higher grade hospital
05:06
it's just how that sort of thing would work
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:08 AM
Except that compared to when Australia had a simmilar system to the us, healthcare was bounds more expensive than public healthcare. We don't have to pay more taxes to a private system because we don't have much of a private system, as private healthcare acts more of an extras for people who have very specific needs
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:09 AM
yeah because your economy wasn't exactly going at the same level
05:09
australia is not a superpower
05:09
that is mainly why state mandated healthcare works arguably with few problems
05:10
it's a 1st world country tho
05:10
but it ain't one of the trade powerhouses
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:12 AM
So why does a massively rich supperpower need to spend more on healthcare that is extremely inefficient and has many thousands of deaths due to such, compared to a much less powerfull, low exporting nation?
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:14 AM
it isn't inefficient, as I just explained, if you had no health program and you checked into a hospital for a heart attack you would receive instant treatment, if you couldn't pay for it, and you didn't want to set up a 3 week mortgage like program you could be given a maximum of 10 months to pay for it, something very lenient. (edited)
05:14
and I'm unaware of any deaths due to healthcare that are above average in the US
05:15
that doesn't make any sense as a point
05:15
if you're dying, you call an ambulance, and you go to a hospital, they're going to perform surgery on you instantly
05:15
any deaths are from the ambulance not being able to get in there in time, something australia, or any other country would suffer from, with or without private healthcare.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:16 AM
I meant the deaths from people simply not getting the healthcare they need because they can't afford it at all
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:17 AM
you're going to have to elaborate on that a bit more, say I'm a low income individual
05:17
I trip and fall down a small stairwell
05:17
my leg is broken, I reach for my phone and call an ambulance, they get here and I go to the hospital
05:17
they treat me instantly and bring up payment the next day if not the next week,
05:17
if I'm unable to pay and don't want a 3 week program I can request 10 months to bring up the money
05:18
if I don't get it within 10 months I am forced to go into the 3 week program
05:18
that is an extremely efficient system.
05:18
keep in mind this isn't even the norm
05:18
the average citizen has health insurance and paying isn't something threatening to them.
05:19
any death that would occur from that, is again, from the ambulance not being able to get there in time,
05:19
which, again, is something any country would suffer from, with or without private or state mandated healthcare.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:20 AM
The WHO seems to say quite otherwise
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:20 AM
what do they say mike
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:22 AM
In almost every field of mortality rate, the us ranks much higher than every other 1st world nations
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:23 AM
given that they're about 11x larger
05:23
with a population 11x greater
05:23
that would seem to make sense now wouldn't it
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:23 AM
Rate not total
05:23
Big difference
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:23 AM
you're not gonna get away with that one mike
05:23
you're gonna elaborate on that difference
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:24 AM
Rate specifies say deaths by (insert ailnent) per 1000
05:24
Total means 10000 total to 100 total as an example
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:25 AM
deaths from what
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:26 AM
Mortality rate from treatable diseases and injuries
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:28 AM
see mike, you tried to pull one over on me, if I got a disease in Australia, even if it was treatable, there's still a great chance I'm going to die from that because it's only treatable, as for injuries, that could definitely be alienated as blood loss. (edited)
05:29
which again, doesn't help when the U.S. is a gigantic country with hundreds of millions more citizens to treat for those "treatable diseases" then the UK
05:29
with likely only 10 - 30% more medicine.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:30 AM
Sorry but the us has tonnes more staff and resources EVEN RELATIVE to Australia and the UK. U can also note the fact that over 45 thousand Americans die from being untreated as they were unable to afford any insurqnce, and were simply denied treatment
05:33
As an example, my uncle got a liver problem which cousins from the US said would be a death sentence because of the costs and treatment. Hes still alive after over 10 years because of the competency of the Australian healthcare system
05:33
In America he would have been denied treatment or any compensation because of his past conditions (edited)
05:34
And yes the system isn't perfect, it's arguable way better than one which cares very little for anyone who is unable to afford insurance
05:36
Many healthcare experts and WHO advisors have even said themselves that population size isn't even a the biggest factor, since every nation is relative to their economic situation
05:36
Which again goes back to economic powerhouse of the US
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:36 AM
First of all, you're going to have to name your source on the U.S. having more resources then the UK for medicine, I would be extremely disappointed in the UK if the private company were able to one up them on resources. Second, you keep bringing up insurance as though a man who is suffering from a disease won't be treated at a hospital if he doesn't have insurance, something that is false. And wait a minute "45 thousand Americans" out of a population of almost 400 million? and you're trying to tell me that is a problem of national security? the UK gets more then 45 thousand deaths a year from the Flu lmao. As for your Uncle, he would've been able to get his liver treated, then after that if he wanted continual treatment he would've been able to set up something like a mortgage to the hospital, or he could've applied for a welfare check and got his future liver treatments covered. I would also refrain from saying that the U.S. cares very little for anyone who is unable to afford insurance, if you refer to insult instead of argument it is clear that the argument may not be going in your favor. (edited)
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:41 AM
Well there is also the overall point that tonnes of NGOs have stated that large public healthcare systems actually have a high degree of cost lowering compared to an almost compelty private system
05:41
Again I refer to the WHO
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:41 AM
what costs lowering
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:42 AM
It means that private healthcare is much more expensive for basic needs than public healthcare systems
05:42
Theres also the fact that "Medical Expenses Contribute To Two-Thirds Of Bankruptcy Filings In U.S."
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:43 AM
expensive to who? the citizen or the state
05:44
and considering bankruptcy filing in the U.S. is an extremely rare thing for a single citizen instead of a company
05:44
that would make sense
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:46 AM
U do realise that financial risk protection is part of the healthcare system right? It would be less expensive for the citizen as Australia has shown, and they would still be able to insure themselves for extras and other protecitons
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:46 AM
yet if the individual in the U.S. can absolutely not pay for the healthcare no matter what mortgage they're offered, they can get a welfare check.
05:46
doesn't seem to have much financial risk to me.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:47 AM
Yes but you see, a system that makes welfare a primary option for many working class isn't an efficnt one
👍 1
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:48 AM
it isn't a primary option
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:48 AM
Compared to Australia welfare due to medical expenses is almost zero
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:48 AM
at what point in this argument was that proven nor discussed
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:48 AM
Again, I refer to the bankruptcy statisic, and the WHO study
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:48 AM
I'd certainly hope it would be low in Australia if it's state mandated already
05:49
the bankruptcy statistic which I stated my rebuttal upon earlier
and considering bankruptcy filing in the U.S. is an extremely rare thing for a single citizen instead of a company
05:49
that would make sense
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:50 AM
Again, looking at the WHO study, it shows that America's financial protection for citizens is well... Massively worse than "socialised" systems
05:51
While bankruptcy isn't common, it still places massive strain on many people
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:52 AM
you are a big fan of vague statements aren't you mike, in a hypothetical country in which most people are wealthy, the country's "financial protection" for it's citizens is still going to be "worse" then in a socialized system because it isn't by definition socialist,
05:53
you may claim great financial protection, but execution is another thing
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:53 AM
It's not my claim
05:53
It's the WHOs claim
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:53 AM
when you repeated it as fact it was indeed your claim in this argument
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:55 AM
I think you missunderstand my argument, it's not that public healthcare should be the only optijon, it's that it should be as funded, researched and structured as well and finely as Commonwealth nations
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:55 AM
didn't I just make at least 50+ points as to why it doesn't need to be
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:56 AM
Except again, even with a payment plan, just going to the wrong hospital in the US can cost U thousands more because it's not in your insurance network
05:56
It can even cost you if the doctor or physician is not in network
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Deleted User 06-May-20 05:57 AM
you keep saying "can cost you thousands more" as if there's a cashier at the exit of the hospital in which you immediately have to pay
05:57
there are 3 - 6 week mortgage plans, there are 10 month plans
05:57
you are under no financial stress to pay instantly
05:57
no matter the cost
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 05:58 AM
Plans don't matter when you are faced with an absolutely monumental cost
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Deleted User 06-May-20 06:00 AM
you're gonna have to fill me in on the logic there mike, because a plan would almost definitely matter when you are faced with a monumental cost.
06:00
which in itself is extremely unlikely,
06:01
if you are faced with an urgent surgery you are likely a well off old person or someone who has insurance for these type of things as they've had this condition for years.
06:02
it's not a "brain surgery appear out of nowhere" world, you're going to have probably had insurance for many years for this sort of thing.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 06:02 AM
Well unless U live in a place which allows them to deny you insurance based on your conditions
06:02
Oh wait
06:04
There's also the fact that public healthcare would also cover over 27 million more people if used
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Deleted User 06-May-20 06:05 AM
It's illegal to deny someone the benefits of their insurance if they pay for it, if you've had a brain condition for many years you're going to have insurance for that grade of condition. Yes, public healthcare would cover everyone, would it work as efficiently in comparison to the points I've previously made? that's unlikely mike.
06:05
I don't know where you got that insurance statement from, that's something else man.
06:05
reminds me of the "high capacity clip" argument.
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 06:08 AM
Oop I gotta go do some work, I'll continue this debate later
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Deleted User 06-May-20 06:08 AM
ok amigo
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Talker Mike 06-May-20 06:09 AM
Cya l8r mate <3
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